chamomileess
EL and I have already expressed some displeasure at the sexism some of the beasts display (Cough, cough, hydra. Cough.)To get things started off, here's the basic stuff I've found for the Beasts:1st Evolution is 250 Stones2nd is 5503rd is 1210and Last is 2670.My numbers may be a bit off, but thats what I got after 2 separate tr
EternalLurker
There you go.Since you mentioned Siren and Naga, I'd like to reiterate that Naga is waaaayyyy better than Siren, which comes after it. Siren doesn't have any synergy with any probable build you could have so early in the game. Its attack rate is terrible even with its own Morale boost unless you've got Sisily-level Empathy, but that amount of Empathy is a waste because Siren also disables natural Energy recovery. I suppose it might be possible to use +Morale items with Neraine freezing the enemies via Agility and her main weapon, but that's just about the only build that could make Siren even moderately decent at that point in the game. Meanwhile, Naga has a freeze breath too and it does damage, plus his normal attack is ranged (so it isn't terribly dangerous to use) and his perk goes very well with Agility while Siren's perk doesn't really go with any stat. Add to all that the fact that Siren is slow as fuck and it's pretty evident that Naga >>> Si
chamomileess
Oh well. I noticed that Naga is much better than Siren as well. I'm currently trying to put every character up with every combination of beast, unless that has been ninja'd from me as wel
an
iren is under powered now? I thought you said it was too strong before O_oa? hmm...what to boost on Sire
EternalLurker
Siren pretty slow for a melee beast, though. You can't jump in, attack, and jump out at that movement speed, so you have to be able to take hits, but that means you need either Endurance or Agility, and then you can't afford the Empathy that you need to make Siren attack more frequently. I think increasing Siren's rate of attack is easily the most important way to make him balanced against Naga. Currently it's so slow that Neraine and Gelyan, who don't have godlike Empathy, can't even expect him to attack more than twice during the 8 seconds that he keeps an enemy fro
an
QUOTE (EternalLurker @ Jul 8 2010, 06:14 AM) quotecWell, I said the third-tier Azure beasts were better than the third-tier Crimson beasts. I think that's still true; gimme a bit and I'll double-check that. But that's not what I'm talking about right now; all I'm saying is that Naga >>> Siren, which doesn't necessarily mean that Siren is weak but more probably means that Naga is too strong. /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />Siren pretty slow for a melee beast, though. You can't jump in, attack, and jump out at that movement speed, so you have to be able to take hits, but that means you need either Endurance or Agility, and then you can't afford the Empathy that you need to make Siren attack more frequently. I think increasing Siren's rate of attack is easily the most important way to make him balanced against Naga. Currently it's so slow that Neraine and Gelyan, who don't have godlike Empathy, can't even expect him to attack more than twice during the 8 seconds that he keeps an enemy frozen.QuoteEndQuoteEEndHmm...Morale effects attack rate. I guess I can pump Siren speed and morale slightly. Btw Cham, trying all characters on all beasts is a pretty intense task O_O. There are 20 beasts in total. Unlike you mean all tier 5 beasts on all charact
chamomileess
Wish me luck! /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif
an
ol..I should add some cheating system in next version to help testing. I was going to ask you to help me editing and checking the script since you had a good grab of character's personality and story in your fan-fict
chamomileess
/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />If you want to fire off the script to me via email or PM, I can look over it /happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif
EternalLurker
>_>Anyway...I think I have an idea of why we might all be disagreeing on beast balance. An, at what character level and/or at what game stage do you expect us to create each tier of beast? The amount of stat points we have available at the time greatly affects beast balance. The reason I think Siren sucks is because if you get it by level 6-7 you don't have enough stats to make it useful, but if you're expecting us to get third tier beasts only by, say, level 11 / Shade Spring, then the problem isn't its attack rate because you can get enough Empathy by then. The problem just becomes the fact that its damage is terrible for a melee be
EternalLurker
Neraine Agility+Power builds have absolutely no reason to progress past Naga ever because any beast in Naga's tree is worse for Agility+Power. Much worse. You shouldn't have the best Neraine.Agility+Power beast in the game be a second-tier one.Here's the most ridiculous anti-boss build in the game: level 19 Neraine, with Agility 23/Power 33, Arcane Earrings, and Berserker Soul easily destroys the entirety of Infinity Space without letting any boss fire a single shot. You just keep everyone frozen permanently with Naga's breath. No consumables necessary.The minimum fire rate of Naga's breath needs to be toned down such that there has to be a gap between freezes; otherwise no one ever gets to attack. The only thing that can get past is a swarm of little enemies; individual big enemies all get frozen permanently. Siren can't do anything even remotely like this, because its freeze is much too expensive to pay for itself with Arcane Earrings.And that's just its offensive capability. Defensively you're basically unkillable with that dodge increase, high movement, and the sheer power of the dodge-activated perk. For a more defensive Agility+Power build, try a Cursed Pendant and Grim Reaper or Mirage Boots instead: your attacks regenerate HP and your many, many dodges regenerate MP. It's harder to kill than the Phoenix.in summary: nerf plox. Siren and the others might not need a buff; it's probably just that Naga is terribly broken.Well, not a big buff. Siren needs definitely. I'd say movement and either morale or damage, but not both of the lat
an
mm yeah, Sound like Naga got the same problem like Leviathan's Chrono Vortex before I nerf him. Yeah, def need a fix there. Thank
EternalLurker
Anyone disagree with me so far? I'd like to hear dissenting voices if there are any, ya know. I won't bite ya. :P For example, does anyone know if Zuu can ever be better than his predecessor, Gargoyle? Seems to me that Zuu has a much worse breath, not really a better attack, only one more Endurance, and a way less useful perk. Similarly, has anyone found a way to make a Hydra build that doesn't entirely require the yet-again-broken-combo of Power + Arcane Earrings (and in this case add the Grim Reaper)? Anything less doesn't seem to be of any use, since you need a method of poisoning opponents to use Hydra's breath (its attack barely keeps enemies poisoned for any length of time at all, so that's useless), but poison damage is based on Power so you need Power....but Power + Empathy doesn't offer any defense whatsoever, so you need Arcane Earrings to replace Empathy.Really, does Power + Arcane Earrings handle basically everything? Since playthrough #1 I've yet to find anything that holds a candle to it.EDIT: Just did a quick playthrough using the build about which I'd theorized in the other thread. Sisily Empathy+Agility Tiamat+Cursed Pendant (I can't afford the damn Deep Blue) is pretty badass. With the Arcane Earrings nerf things might be looking up for builds other than Power+Arcane Earrings. I'll check it out furt
obscurans
Um... Gely's defensive shell now goes up to 40%? Almost beat some of the higher levels without ever firing any shots. That's Gely-Gargoyle-2xGaia
EternalLurker
Me, my issue with Gargoyle >>>> Zuu is Sisily more than Gelyan. Gargoyle's breath is just really, really powerful as compared to the two adjacent beasts in its tier (Pegasus is powerful), and really as compared to even some of the late-game beasts. It slaughters anything big due to its piercing effect and it hits everywhere on screen and does enough damage to kill smaller enemies too, and it's really energy-efficient. Its breath cost probably needs to increase or, much better (so that it's not uselessly uncastable for an early-game Gelyan or Neraine), its damage just needs to drop.EDIT: Hm, Zuu's breath is better than I gave it credit for being. You need a lot of base Endurance to allow yourself to get low on health, but at that point its damage starts raping; I'd never killed a boss in 3 seconds until now. (3 seconds. Not an exaggeration.) Still, it's a risky strategy whereas Gargoyle's basically low-risk-high-reward; while I don't think Zuu is bad now that I've tested it with a monstrous Endurance+Empathy build, Gargoyle is still a bit too good. Not Naga-good, but pretty damn good.I don't enjoy getting hit, so I've pretty much never tried any of the on-hit-do-this items and thus can't say anything about whether or not Gargoyle's defensive abilities need a nerf. Sounds like it's okay, though, if you needed Gaia's Vest to make it useful; Zuu probably needs a buff in that category more than Gargoyle needing a nerf. As you've said before, natural regen isn't enough for Zuu's perk to be anywhere near as great as Gargoyle's. In fact, that's the main thing that needs a buff: Endurance's effect on natural HP regen needs to be boosted pretty dramatically. But I said that in December of last year. /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif
EternalLurker
I think Griffin is a lot better now that he only slows your movement instead of freezing entirely and missing everything...but it's hard to test, because he's very glitchy. Sometimes, after the first activation of his breath in a level, he'll suddenly end up with permanently maxed movement regardless of whether or not he's using his breath at the time. I think it might be related to leveling up during a breath attack but I'm not entirely sure; that hasn't been completely consistent in replicating the effect.EDIT: Yeah, nevermind, it's consistent. Leveling up during his breath attack causes him to have maxed movement for the rest of the level.Speaking of leveling up, the exp bar still only fills up to about 85% before reaching the next level, as gunground originally repor
an
/tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />.Seem like Zuu can use a buff or a twist on his Perk. I will look into that next version.And yeah, Endurance Gelyan riding Gargoyle with x2 Auto cast armor is probably one of the most interesting built. You get up to 95% damage reduction! The downside is Zodiac Curse still kill you, but Zodiac curses kill everything anyway /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />. Hell, you can be lazy and farm levels by using the auto-cast builds and read the book while waiting for Grand Cosmos to kill everyth
EternalLurker
EDIT: 1630 on Infinity Space at level 18. WHAT. I only barely managed a silver before, even with NeraNaga. This is a VERY comfortable gold.Ya know, I think I've figured out what it is that's making Endurance ineffective as a defensive stat without x2 Gaia's Vest and/or Gelyan. It's NOT the natural HP regen, actually. It's the poison resistance. Poison just does so much damage that no one other than Gelyan can take a poison hit; even at 23 Endurance Sisily dies to just TWO poison attacks (very slowly, but eventually the poison does its work). I think Endurance should get a boost to poison resistance; maybe increase Endurance's effect on it from 2% per point to 2.5%?By the way, obscurans, since you like invincible Gelyan builds, have you tried Pegasus + Power + Power Overwhelming + Cursed Pendant + Agility and some Endurance? I bet it's pretty much unkillable: whenever you take damage, you're invincible for 3 seconds during which you can probably leech it all back. Plus the damage should be decent with a Power + Power Overwhelming build: 36 Power is not bad even with Gelyan's weapons, and especially with Pegasus help
an
eah, The damage formula for Soul Void is double of fully powered Soul Blossoms. However, soul void is slightly harder to aim and much more dangerous to use. I would imagine Soul Void being very effective on Zodiac Memory since he always keep you at 1HP. I will look into the endurance boost on Poison Res
EternalLurker
h, no, that's not how I use it. I just stack Soul Voids on enemies and then RUN INTO THE ENEMY. That drops my health really fast, so the stacked Soul Voids increase dramatically in damage. Once my health's low enough I just start dodg
