EternalLurker
QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 2 2010, 09:15 PM) quotec...wouldn't it be prudent to see if it had any effect on the other two skills we don't have access to as of yet?I'd assume that at least one of them is a pure damage black skill which doesn't rely on endurance/enemy defense to work which makes lowering the enemy's defense more important. Alternatively, A magic based black(i.e a physical damage that takes mag as it's main multiplier) skill could be interesting(albeit probably underused as mag so far only affects jelly shot.) as well given that you need a fair amount of mag to access these perks to begin with.QuoteEndQuoteEEndYes, of course I've considered that, but unless the new skill is overwhelmingly powerful and efficient -- which I think would be lame, as it means all previous skills are no longer of much use -- then I think the current Falcon Eyes is underpowered even with a new Black skill.quoteo(post=2267:date=Jan 2 2010, 09:15 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 2 2010, 09:15 PM) quotecSomething that just popped into my mind though, why does the black perk tree have a magic focus?QuoteEndQuoteEEndGelyan's moves may not be directly enhanced by Magic, but Magic helps him and his Tarot afford them. Gelyan's moves tend to be expensive. But yes, since Magic doesn't increase the damage of his current moves and it's a major pre-req of the Black tree, the only ways to make the Black perks viable are to give him a magic move (I'm kinda already assuming he'll have a Black Magic attack, which is why I've never suggested it, but yes, it's pretty much a necessity) and to make them not cripple Armor Crusher, which is a move that doesn't require as much Power as Trigger Happy to be useful on certain enemies.Changing the Magic focus of the Black pre-reqs isn't really an option, if that's what you were suggesting. Red is Power and Green is Endurance. Making Black focus on Agility and have Magic as an afterthought, instead of the current reversed situation, would make Agility too useful for Gelyan, since it's already a more powerful stat for him than Magic is. The core perks of each character should be versatile, but not overwhelmingly powerful, since you can pick-and-choose them without affecting the Central Perk.quoteo(post=2276:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:59 AM:name=Mokona)QUOTE (Mokona @ Jan 3 2010, 11:59 AM) quotec...there should be another central perk, just so that (for example) you go with a full magic Sisi, you can still get a better central perk. This goes for Nera as well. By doing this, you can also fix the eyes problem by giving Gelyan a super perk for black which pretty much owns everything.QuoteEndQuoteEEndWhile that's not really a mechanically infeasible idea, I think that kills the flavor of the core perk tree, which is that you can pick-and-choose them without affecting your character's other abilities for high customizability.quoteo(post=2276:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:59 AM:name=Mokona)QUOTE (Mokona @ Jan 3 2010, 11:59 AM) quotecSisi's blue tree reduces her magic. This is not good. -6 magic? Ouch.QuoteEndQuoteEEnd...Sisily's Blood tree makes her Power godlike. How would not dropping her Magic be balanced? Even if she didn't get any more Magic+Power attacks, Warp Tornado would be ridicul
hale
QUOTE (EternalLurker @ Jan 4 2010, 09:02 AM) quotecYes, of course I've considered that, but unless the new skill is overwhelmingly powerful and efficient -- which I think would be lame, as it means all previous skills are no longer of much use -- then I think the current Falcon Eyes is underpowered even with a new Black skill.QuoteEndQuoteEEndNot really, it doesn't need to be overwhelmingly efficient. You already have Trigger Happy for a lower cost rating, having it cost like 10-20(i'm assuming we get a higher energy cap in part 2 >.>;) energy and do heavy damage is a pretty good deal in my opinion. Use Trigger Happy on lowered defense opponents to soften them up and blow em apart with the new skill if you need the extra damage. Having low accuracy to deter power based Gelyans from relying too much on it(or rather changing it up to Jelly Shot -> Unknown Ability rather than spamming 2 or more of them as black perk users can do) should work. Come to think of it, this would even make the magic requirement for black perks more sensible.In case you're thinking it will be overpowered, as it is, a Power Gelyan can hit around 10-20k damage on Tale using Armorbreaker and an Endurance Gelyan can hit approximately the same using Soul Pact. I don't think it's overly optimistic to give him a third option for dealing somewhat similar damage.quoteo(post=2286:date=Jan 4 2010, 09:02 AM:name=EternalLurker)QUOTE (EternalLurker @ Jan 4 2010, 09:02 AM) quotecGelyan's moves may not be directly enhanced by Magic, but Magic helps him and his Tarot afford them. Gelyan's moves tend to be expensive. But yes, since Magic doesn't increase the damage of his current moves and it's a major pre-req of the Black tree, the only ways to make the Black perks viable are to give him a magic move (I'm kinda already assuming he'll have a Black Magic attack, which is why I've never suggested it, but yes, it's pretty much a necessity) and to make them not cripple Armor Crusher, which is a move that doesn't require as much Power as Trigger Happy to be useful on certain enemies.Changing the Magic focus of the Black pre-reqs isn't really an option, if that's what you were suggesting. Red is Power and Green is Endurance. Making Black focus on Agility and have Magic as an afterthought, instead of the current reversed situation, would make Agility too useful for Gelyan, since it's already a more powerful stat for him than Magic is. The core perks of each character should be versatile, but not overwhelmingly powerful, since you can pick-and-choose them without affecting the Central Perk.QuoteEndQuoteEEndI forgot raising Magic raises the amount of energy gained to be honest, huge oversight on my part, I apologise for that. Given that Gelyan is a major energy hog when you want damage. (Each Armor Breaker = 7 energy and Soul Pact = 8 energy) perhaps he doesn't need a magic based low cost attack but rather have it as a drawback for using a black perk only build.(i.e since you have high magic and your best attack costs a lot of energy, you'll have to deal with using low powered jelly shots or the more expensive trigger happy(which also won't have very high damage compared to a power build) which lowers your damage per turn since you can't spam your best move.)Also, focusing Gelyan on agility should NEVER be an option, damage wise, he's got the range and the firepower even without any stat ups to be decently damaging against any enemy. Having him focus on getting more attacks(i.e hit even HARDER than he already does) would be painful for the enemies in my opinion.This should make it so that there's 3 general Gelyan builds, a Power one which relies on Trigger Happy and Armor Breaker for normal fights and an expensive unknown ability for bosses(which he can't spam unless you have a magic battery and even then it will hit for less i think due to higher armor rating.), an Endurance build which focuses on Soul Pact and a Magic/Agility one which focuses on lots of Trigger Happy's or Jelly Shots and spamming the expensive unknown ability for bosses.It sounds reasonable though I'm worried that people will start to favor a power build and build Sisi/Emi as magic batteries instead. On the other hand, Moon Waltzers will already want Sisi as a backup magic battery of sorts to ensure they have enough energy(particularly Agility/Magic builds due to 5 turns) so I suppose a magic battery build is already implied in the current scenario.The other thing I believe would happen is that each perk tree would be even harder to mix and match if this happens however... Endurance Gelyans will probably want to mix Green and Black perks(the loss of defense isn't too irritating given that most of your damage will come from soul pact anyway), Power Gelyans will focus on Red almost exclusively(since black perks can reduce the efficiency of armor crusher) and Magic/Agility Gelyans will want to focus on Black perks almost exclusively to maximize the damage done...Edit: Figured I should also note that I'm still messing around with the mechanics a fair bit so what I say may or may not be entirely accurate as they're based on scenarios I imagine rather than actual experie
chamomileess
QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM) quotecNot really, it doesn't need to be overwhelmingly efficient. You already have Trigger Happy for a lower cost rating, having it cost like 10-20(i'm assuming we get a higher energy cap in part 2 >.>;) energy and do heavy damage is a pretty good deal in my opinion.QuoteEndQuoteEEndTrue, Trigger Happy does have a lower cost in terms of energy, but you need to factor in its horrid accuracy rating (75) and how the damage is reduced by defense. Because we've already decided to buck the defense piercing in favour of a stronger Armour Crusher, Trigger Happy will become VERY useless against high dodge/ high defense opponents.quoteo(post=2289:date=Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM) quotecUse Trigger Happy on lowered defense opponents to soften them up and blow em apart with the new skill if you need the extra damage. Having low accuracy to deter power based Gelyans from relying too much on it(or rather changing it up to Jelly Shot -> Unknown Ability rather than spamming 2 or more of them as black perk users can do) should work. Come to think of it, this would even make the magic requirement for black perks more sensible.QuoteEndQuoteEEndWhile this makes sense, it should be noted that this works on lower defense opponents. This will still bring us back to the issue of high defense. If the New Ability is Black-natured, it will be very dependent upon the defense of the opponent, which means that you'll have to rely on Armour Crusher. All in all, when the three skills are used together to cover various weaknesses, Gelyan will be balanced. For example:Opponent with 100 defense and 0 dodge(125 -100 and minus however much Gely's perks allow him to) could be easily dispatched with Trigger Happy due to its low cost: damage ratio.Opponent with 1000 defense and dodge should be taken down with Armour Crusher for obvious reasons.Opponent with 600 defense and 450 dodge. This one is a bit difficult, as the high dodge makes Armour Crusher unreliable, and the combination of High dodge and defense make Trigger Happy useless. This would be when you bring in the new mystery skill, assuming that it has some newfangled special effect that reduces these two somehow. ( A Magic based effect, perhaps?)quoteo(post=2289:date=Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM) quotecsince you have high magic and your best attack costs a lot of energy, you'll have to deal with using low powered jelly shots or the more expensive trigger happy(which also won't have very high damage compared to a power build) which lowers your damage per turn since you can't spam your best move.)QuoteEndQuoteEEndThat part of your post confused my a bit. Are you saying that a magic-build Gelyan will be weaker in the long run? If that's what you mean, then it's very obvious that that is true, seeing as how two out of his four attacks now are based on Power, not magic.I think what you're doing is trying to make Gelyan the "all-purpose" party member. You're saying that a power Gelyan should invest points into magic just so that he can have access to his stronger moves more often; it seems that you've overlooked the fact that this game is a game about a party of people, which means that Gelyan has support. There's a reason why most people make Sisi and Emi into Energy-batteries, so Gelyan won't need to cover that. You can, conceivably, build a Gelyan out of nothing but power, and he'll have stupidly low HP, he'll only be able to act twice per turn, and he'll only generate 6 energy on his own per turn, but his damage will be utterly insane. He can even spam any move he wants, since he has Sisily in front of him (in terms of turn order) and Emi behind him. So even though Gely needs magic for his perk tree, he won't be dependent on magic for energy.quoteo(post=2289:date=Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM) quotecAlso, focusing Gelyan on agility should NEVER be an option, damage wise, he's got the range and the firepower even without any stat ups to be decently damaging against any enemy. Having him focus on getting more attacks(i.e hit even HARDER than he already does) would be painful for the enemies in my opinion.QuoteEndQuoteEEndAgain, your post confuses me. You're saying that if Gelyan gets more attacks per turn, he can hit harder? O_O Maybe in cumulative damage, but not overall. The way I see it, an endurance/agility Gelyan would make the most sense, seeing as how he can get three Soul Pacts in every turn, and still do decent damage with every one if he has 14 agility. The only con of this is that Soul Pact takes 15% of his max HP each hit, which means that Gelyan will lose 45% HP every turn, so he'll be dependent upon his own healing abilities as well as the High Priestess from time to time.quoteo(post=2289:date=Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 07:19 PM) quotecThe other thing I believe would happen is that each perk tree would be even harder to mix and match if this happens however... Endurance Gelyans will probably want to mix Green and Black perks(the loss of defense isn't too irritating given that most of your damage will come from soul pact anyway), Power Gelyans will focus on Red almost exclusively(since black perks can reduce the efficiency of armor crusher) and Magic/Agility Gelyans will want to focus on Black perks almost exclusively to maximize the damage done...QuoteEndQuoteEEndI think the perk trees are there simply for the effect of getting the final Central Perk. Each of the perks are impressive on their own, but the Central Perk is what takes the cake. I doubt anyone would want to mix and match perks, except in a few extreme cases. As well, mixing and matching will cost you valuable attribute points just so that you can unlock it.For example, you said that Endurance Gelys will want to focus on Green and Black perks. Since there's only three, I'll list the possibilities:Unshaken Heart+ Falcon Eyes+ Nature Heart= Minimum 20 Endurance, 10 agility, 7 magic.Unshaken Heart+ Falcon Eyes+ Beholder Eyes= Minimum 10 Endurance, 14 Agility, 12 magicUnshaken Heart+ Rejuv. Heart+ Beholder Eyes= Minimum 16 Endurance, 14 Agility, 12 magic (<--Attribute point waste-age)Eagle Eyes+ Falcon Eyes+ Nature Heart= Minimum 20 Endurance, 10 agility, 7 MagicEagle Eyes+ Rejuv. Heart+ Nature Heart= Minimum 20 Endurance, 8 Agility, 7 MagicEagle Eyes+ Rejuv. Heart+ Beholder Eyes= Minimum16 Endurance, 14 Agility, 12 magic (<-- Another waster)Really, mixing the perks will give you a minor boost in an all around sense, but nothing really solid. Plus, you lose access to the Central Perk, which requires three perks of the same colour to become activated.OhGodWhatAHugePost D:
hale
QUOTE (Chamomile @ Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM) quotecOhGodWhatAHugePost D:QuoteEndQuoteEEndXD; Been on a different forum for too long which values long posts, THAT and i'm naturally a windbag. >_>;quoteo(post=2295:date=Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM:name=Chamomile)QUOTE (Chamomile @ Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM) quotecTrue, Trigger Happy does have a lower cost in terms of energy, but you need to factor in its horrid accuracy rating (75) and how the damage is reduced by defense. Because we've already decided to buck the defense piercing in favour of a stronger Armour Crusher, Trigger Happy will become VERY useless against high dodge/ high defense opponents.QuoteEndQuoteEEndAssuming we DON'T buck the defense reduce, Trigger happy becomes a decent accuracy(given that the enemy's dodge rating just got hit by 66% AND had 100 points reduced before this AND the central black perk reduces dodge, I'd say you're looking at 0 dodge for most enemies), low energy attack which works on high def(who have just been hit with a 300 point penalty) enemies as well as low def(who are now 0 def enemies) enemies.quoteo(post=2295:date=Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM:name=Chamomile)QUOTE (Chamomile @ Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM) quotecWhile this makes sense, it should be noted that this works on lower defense opponents. This will still bring us back to the issue of high defense. If the New Ability is Black-natured, it will be very dependent upon the defense of the opponent, which means that you'll have to rely on Armour Crusher. All in all, when the three skills are used together to cover various weaknesses, Gelyan will be balanced. For example:Opponent with 100 defense and 0 dodge(125 -100 and minus however much Gely's perks allow him to) could be easily dispatched with Trigger Happy due to its low cost: damage ratio.Opponent with 1000 defense and dodge should be taken down with Armour Crusher for obvious reasons.Opponent with 600 defense and 450 dodge. This one is a bit difficult, as the high dodge makes Armour Crusher unreliable, and the combination of High dodge and defense make Trigger Happy useless. This would be when you bring in the new mystery skill, assuming that it has some newfangled special effect that reduces these two somehow. ( A Magic based effect, perhaps?)That part of your post confused my a bit. Are you saying that a magic-build Gelyan will be weaker in the long run? If that's what you mean, then it's very obvious that that is true, seeing as how two out of his four attacks now are based on Power, not magic.QuoteEndQuoteEEndWith the defense reduction your formerly impressive 600 def enemy now has 300 def and around... 154 dodge(assuming the 100 is taken off before the % is applied). I don't think the new skill needs any special effect other than does somewhat comparable damage to Soul Pact/Armor Crusher on a high Defense Ratio opponent to kill that, perhaps normal accuracy rather than low(i.e 100% rather than Trigger Happy's 75%).In other word for non-endurance builds,Low Dodge/Armor = Trigger HappyHigh Dodge/Low Armor = Jelly Shot -> Trigger Happy/New Skill*Low Dodge/High Armor = New SkillHigh Dodge/High Armor = Jelly Shot -> New Skill**This is where the accuracy part comes into play, a power Gelyan can try to hit the enemy using Jelly Shot -> New Skill but Jelly shot only decreases dodge by a fairly small amount so a Gelyan with Black perks should still deal more damage compared to a Power Gelyan doing the same thing.Whereas Endurance Builds will spam Soul Pact or Jelly Shot->Soul Pact on everything that needs it.quoteo(post=2295:date=Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM:name=Chamomile)QUOTE (Chamomile @ Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM) quotecI think what you're doing is trying to make Gelyan the "all-purpose" party member. You're saying that a power Gelyan should invest points into magic just so that he can have access to his stronger moves more often; it seems that you've overlooked the fact that this game is a game about a party of people, which means that Gelyan has support. There's a reason why most people make Sisi and Emi into Energy-batteries, so Gelyan won't need to cover that. You can, conceivably, build a Gelyan out of nothing but power, and he'll have stupidly low HP, he'll only be able to act twice per turn, and he'll only generate 6 energy on his own per turn, but his damage will be utterly insane. He can even spam any move he wants, since he has Sisily in front of him (in terms of turn order) and Emi behind him. So even though Gely needs magic for his perk tree, he won't be dependent on magic for energy.QuoteEndQuoteEEndI'm just trying to make sure no one centers their party around Gelyan and his (already impressive) arsenal of attacks though as you said, energy supply from Sisi and Emi kinda moots my point though @_@;quoteo(post=2295:date=Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM:name=Chamomile)QUOTE (Chamomile @ Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM) quotecAgain, your post confuses me. You're saying that if Gelyan gets more attacks per turn, he can hit harder? O_O Maybe in cumulative damage, but not overall. The way I see it, an endurance/agility Gelyan would make the most sense, seeing as how he can get three Soul Pacts in every turn, and still do decent damage with every one if he has 14 agility. The only con of this is that Soul Pact takes 15% of his max HP each hit, which means that Gelyan will lose 45% HP every turn, so he'll be dependent upon his own healing abilities as well as the High Priestess from time to time.QuoteEndQuoteEEndSo far I've mainly been using Gelyan with 2 turns per battle and he can already wreck massive havoc with mostly power(and a bit into mag if I remember correctly, I never really focused on him being a damage dealer until Tale.).Having a Gelyan that focuses on Power/Endurance and Agility only sounds painful particularly with another 9 levels to go. That said, it's not really the point of this particular discussion so I'll just ignore that point and assume I didn't say anything about Agility being important. (For a sample of just how much this could potentially hurt, Soul Bond Gelyan, having 3 attacks(as opposed to 2 which is what most builds will have) and high power makes his Trigger Happy and Armor Crusher very painful)quoteo(post=2295:date=Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM:name=Chamomile)QUOTE (Chamomile @ Jan 4 2010, 01:47 PM) quotecI think the perk trees are there simply for the effect of getting the final Central Perk. Each of the perks are impressive on their own, but the Central Perk is what takes the cake. I doubt anyone would want to mix and match perks, except in a few extreme cases. As well, mixing and matching will cost you valuable attribute points just so that you can unlock it.For example, you said that Endurance Gelys will want to focus on Green and Black perks. Since there's only three, I'll list the possibilities:Unshaken Heart+ Falcon Eyes+ Nature Heart= Minimum 20 Endurance, 10 agility, 7 magic.Unshaken Heart+ Falcon Eyes+ Beholder Eyes= Minimum 10 Endurance, 14 Agility, 12 magicUnshaken Heart+ Rejuv. Heart+ Beholder Eyes= Minimum 16 Endurance, 14 Agility, 12 magic (<--Attribute point waste-age)Eagle Eyes+ Falcon Eyes+ Nature Heart= Minimum 20 Endurance, 10 agility, 7 MagicEagle Eyes+ Rejuv. Heart+ Nature Heart= Minimum 20 Endurance, 8 Agility, 7 MagicEagle Eyes+ Rejuv. Heart+ Beholder Eyes= Minimum16 Endurance, 14 Agility, 12 magic (<-- Another waster)Really, mixing the perks will give you a minor boost in an all around sense, but nothing really solid. Plus, you lose access to the Central Perk, which requires three perks of the same colour to become activated.QuoteEndQuoteEEndMmm. I was considering the bonuses only so I didn't take a look at the requireme
chamomileess
QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM) quotecAssuming we DON'T buck the defense reduce, Trigger happy becomes a decent accuracy(given that the enemy's dodge rating just got hit by 66% before this AND the central black perk reduces dodge, I'd say you're looking at 0 dodge for most enemies), low energy attack which works on high def(who have just been hit with a 300 point penalty) enemies as well as low def(who are now 0 def enemies) enemies.QuoteEndQuoteEEndBut that's the thing; we've already decided that the defense piercing on all of Gely's perks are totally moot, since it reduces the power of Armour Crusher and only mildly inproves the damage of T.Happy (I got lazy D: ) As well, looking at your post, it looks like you're factoring in both the old version of Falcon Eyes (100 defense piercing) and the proposed re-vamp (100 ) (The bold-italics marks where I'm talking about) quoteo(post=2298:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM) quotecWith the defense reduction your formerly impressive 600 def enemy now has 300 def and around... 154 dodge(assuming the 100 is taken off before the % is applied). I don't think the new skill needs any special effect other than does somewhat comparable damage to Soul Pact/Armor Crusher on a high Defense Ratio opponent to kill that, perhaps normal accuracy rather than low(i.e 100% rather than Trigger Happy's 75%).QuoteEndQuoteEEndAgain, I feel I need to state the fact that defense reduction is terrible for ANY Gelyan. I find that even when I use a Power Gely, I almost never use T.Happy later in the game. It's always Armour Crusher, even on the lower defense opponents simply because it hits more often. ( I know, the 75% hit rate for T.Happy is spread across 18 shots, and the 100% for A.Crusher is spread across 2 shots; I just have atrocious luck when it comes to hit rates, yet for dodge rates, I can't get hit at all (18 agility Nera= untouchable for me O-o))quoteo(post=2298:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM) quotecI'm just trying to make sure no one centers their party around Gelyan and his (already impressive) arsenal of attacks though as you said, energy supply from Sisi and Emi kinda moots my point though @_@;QuoteEndQuoteEEndGely isn't central character O-o. I know he's absolutely destructive, but he's pretty much equal with the girls. I've been following EL's build for Nera (the 14 Agility Edition) who's a hybrid Power/Magic Moonwaltzer ( 1 Moonwaltz= 35 power /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":lol:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> ), Sisily is the ever-popular Pure magic. Really, it's impossible to focuss on Gely when the other characters are just as good.quoteo(post=2298:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM) quotec(For a sample of just how much this could potentially hurt, Soul Bond Gelyan, having 3 attacks(as opposed to 2 which is what most builds will have) and high power makes his Trigger Happy and Armor Crusher very painful)QuoteEndQuoteEEndSoul-bond Gely is terrifying, in my opinion. In late game, we'll assume that Death's attributes are: (lvl 20)26 power, 18 endure, 20 agility.Add that on to a Red Perk Gely with the Sharpshooter Central, and you get:26 power (less than what he would have, but eh.) 18 endure ( A HELL of a lot more than he would have if you were focusing on power) and 20 agility ( Holy poo, 5 attacks!?), as well as 60% HP leech from the Sharpshooter Perk with Death's Vampirism. What you have is someone who can deal stupidly high damage (5 TIMES /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" /> ) and convert almost 80% of that damage into HP. Tack that on with the high defense provided from the Endure, and you have yourself a-near invincible tank that won't die so long as he can attack with black natured abilities.quoteo(post=2298:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM:name=Hale)QUOTE (Hale @ Jan 3 2010, 11:47 PM) quotecMmm. I was considering the bonuses only so I didn't take a look at the requirements.QuoteEndQuoteEEndEven when you look at the bonuses, none of them are very good when they're alone, or even mixed with others from different trees. The main point of following a perk tree/build is to unlock the central perk.
EternalLurker
First off, in case anyone doesn't understand the Central Perk mechanic, I'll restate it from the strategy guide. Everyone has a default Central Perk. Gelyan's is the Black Dark Ranger, Neraine's is the Blue Blade Dancer, and Sisily's is the Red Soul Bond. Characters whose Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary Perks are all of an identical color that is not that of their default Central Perk change Central Perk. Sisily with three White Perks automatically gets Divine Retribution, for example. This is helpful for some builds and bad for others. For example, making Sisily into an overwhelming Power-whore by stacking Blood perks to get Petrifying Glare can be rewarding, but if you want to go for overall solid damage while still being a great battery, it may be preferable to go for something closer to, say, my ITRH plan: 1-Energized Soul, 2-Shining Soul, 3-Rainbow Blood, and 18 Agility. That way she doesn't lose her Magic bonus from Spell Bond and that combos with Energized Soul to make her into a very nice battery, yet Rainbow Blood and Shining Soul batter the enemy's Resist (with the Magician's help) while the former also boosts her Power and lowers the enemy's Defense. Similarly, I imagine most Hanged Man users will probably have Neraine go for Power Overwhelming, Absolute Authority, and God's Steps, as taking Divine Supremacy virtually kills Neraine's tanking ability.Now...Hale, what you're basically saying seems to be that keeping the Defense Piercing is all right if Gelyan gets a high-power Black move (as opposed to Armor Crusher's decent power + boost-by-enemy-Defense) because then he has Trigger Happy as and the new Move X as . The problem is that Defense Piercing nerfs Armor Crusher into uselessness. Therefore, Gelyan with Black Perks has only Trigger Happy and Move X as options, not Armor Crusher. Gelyan with Red Perks has and is doing more damage with each due to his high Power. There isn't any comparison unless the new move is, say, triply affected by enemy Defense, so that the Defense Piercing makes it godlike, in which case A: it's lamely overpowered; and B: that just doesn't make much sense in flavor. The thing is, Gelyan's central perk gives him Dodge Piercing, and he's guaranteed to have that if he has at least one Black Perk. Since Dodge Piercing should combo well with the inaccurate Armor Crusher, making Armor Crusher useless with the Black tree just makes Gelyan wimpy overall, so that needs fixing, plain and simple. Giving Gelyan a Black Magic move doesn't help the uselessness of Falcon Eyes since Magic wouldn't be affected by Defense Piercing anyway; it'd need Resist Piercing.No matter what, Falcon Eyes has to be revamped, and while I'm open to other suggestions as to how to do it, I think the one we've figured out there works pretty well. If Gelyan has Falcon Eyes, he's going to have Dark Ranger due to the way Central Perks work, so stacking 100 Dodge Piercing onto Dark Ranger's normal effects makes him lethally accurate. That plus 1 Agility is worth the pre-req cost of Falcon Eyes; Gelyan's damage scales so well with his stats that he normally can't afford Agility if he wants to max out his damage output, so this helps a
hale
QUOTE (Chamomile @ Jan 5 2010, 04:43 AM) quotecBut that's the thing; we've already decided that the defense piercing on all of Gely's perks are totally moot, since it reduces the power of Armour Crusher and only mildly inproves the damage of T.Happy (I got lazy D: ) As well, looking at your post, it looks like you're factoring in both the old version of Falcon Eyes (100 defense piercing) and the proposed re-vamp (100 ) (The bold-italics marks where I'm talking about)QuoteEndQuoteEEnd... oops. >_>; I misread Falcon Eyes as dodge piercing or i'm switching back and forth between the game and this forum too much to keep things straight in my head. Both are probable. :xquoteo(post=2308:date=Jan 5 2010, 07:29 AM:name=EternalLurker)QUOTE (EternalLurker @ Jan 5 2010, 07:29 AM) quotecToo much stuff about Gelyan to quote XD;QuoteEndQuoteEEndAnd no i'm not disregarding the point, i'm just too lazy to find the quote button.A Power Gelyan would want to get the entire red tree though for the 60% vampirism(which negates whatever dodge piercing a central black perk should net him) which means that he will have to lead off each round with Jelly Shot. What I'm proposing is that a Gelyan which focused on black perks would be able to foregoe that one turn spent lowering the enemy's dodge instead due to his insane 66% dodge reduction on top of his central perk. Admittedly this is only a useful thing is Gelyan has say 2-3 moves rather than the 5 that soul bonding Death would probably give him...On the other hand mixing and matching perks can easily net him 66% dodge reduction as well as either 30% hp leeching or +1 range (and some additional power in either case).@_@; Okay, looks like a revamp instead of having a strong black(magic or otherwise) skill is in or
EternalLurker
why we've revamped Falcon Eyes to do Dodge Piercing instead of Defense Piercing, to make up for the greater damage that Red and Green builds will do. This way all three Black perks reduce dodge somewhat, rather than Falcon Eyes being useless, so that you can't just take 1-Black 2-Red 3-Black and expect to have the absolute best of both worlds. So are you just agreeing, t
hale
QUOTE (EternalLurker @ Jan 5 2010, 10:29 AM) quotecI know the lack of a first-turn Jelly Shot is a significant advantage with enough Dodge Piercing. That's exactly why we've revamped Falcon Eyes to do Dodge Piercing instead of Defense Piercing, to make up for the greater damage that Red and Green builds will do. This way all three Black perks reduce dodge somewhat, rather than Falcon Eyes being useless, so that you can't just take 1-Black 2-Red 3-Black and expect to have the absolute best of both worlds. So are you just agreeing, then?QuoteEndQuoteEEndYep. I haven't messed enough with the game to be confident about changing the actual perks so i'll leave it up to people who've played it longer methi
chamomileess
Since Battle Rhyme is being overshadowed, what can we add to it to make it more appealing? At the moment, AA's 25% defense piercing is just too destructive to make Battle Rhyme worth it (although 100% damage on the defensive position is impressive, when compared with the 66% it should be).I say that along with the 100% damaged dealt, Nera should also receive a boost to her defense and resist along with Battle Rhyme, seeing as how someone who chooses Battle Rhyme will be counting on Nera getting attacked so that they can exploit the perk. Maybe an increase of 100-200 defense/resist? I wanted to propose a dodge increase, but the Green tree already offers that, so I don't want the Blue tree to be stealing Green's thunder.I don't see any problem with adding Defense and Resist, seeing as how Celestial Rhyme already adds Resist; why not follow the trend?On another issue, the Rave Dancer central perk will make MoonWaltzers obsolete, won't it? 35 power and 40 power have very little difference when it comes down to that. Will this mean that players can use a Divine Breath once Nera gets Rave Dancer so that they can reset all their magic and power points into Agility and Endurance? With the power set at 35, and 24 ( I think... 2 attribut points per level for 12 levels?) attribute points, is it possible to build a 35//16//4//20 Neraine? She could be a virtually invincible tank with the Fool's HP leech tacked on to that. Her high Endurance would ensure that her own HP recovery at the end of every turn will be about 18% per turn, and her stupidly high black damage will heal her (5 times, from 20 Agility) even if the Fool's HP leech is negligable.So, to summarize: Rave Dance= Not a MoonWaltzers fri
EternalLurker
As for Rave Dancer, Divine Breath gives you 35 Power / 20 Agility / 30 Magic / 6 Endurance. 5x Crystal Ballad at 35 Power / 30 Magic while entirely ignoring enemy Defense kills everything, even assuming she doesn't get another good Magic+Power attack later. So Rave Dancer is fine for my Moon Waltz build without using a Divine Breath: pump Magic, put a point into Endurance for Enchanting Rhyme in the early Moon-Waltz part of the game, put another point into it for Battle Rhyme in the mid-game, always keep just enough Power to qualify for each Red perk (including the Red perks themselves, as each helps you afford the next), and finally grab Divine Supremacy for late-game Rave Dancing, pump Agility to 20, and put the remainder of the points in Magic. It's not worth it to give Neraine much Endurance since Power already factors more into her HP formula than it does for other characters. And yes, that includes under Rave Dancer, so despite the fragility that 0 Defense/Resist/Dodge implies, Rave Dancers have very nice health.Celestial Rhyme is Neraine's only real imbalance at the moment. It's significantly underpowered compared to the other two Tertiary Perks. But if Neraine gets a very powerful Magic ability later on, something like a much more viable version of Frozen Steps, then 400 Resist Piercing could be powerful enough to be worth
mokona96
know this might not make sense, (or if I spelled that right) and nobody has posted on this in a while, so I'm not sure if we're done with it, but maybe beholder eyes could allow Gelyan to move and attack. I'm not sure how you could implement this though, without giving him two attack pha
chamomileess
QUOTE (Mokona @ Jan 8 2010, 02:16 PM) quotecI know this might not make sense, (or if I spelled that right) and nobody has posted on this in a while, so I'm not sure if we're done with it, but maybe beholder eyes could allow Gelyan to move and attack. I'm not sure how you could implement this though, without giving him two attack phases.QuoteEndQuoteEEndNo, that would be too difficult, not to mention that if Gely were able to both move and attack, he would dominate more than he already doe
EternalLurker
QUOTE (Mokona @ Jan 8 2010, 05:16 PM) quotecallow Gelyan to move and attackQuoteEndQuoteEEndbrokenbrokenbrooooooooooooooookeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
pyromania
QUOTE quotecAre Light Steps and Battle Rhyme balanced with Neraine's other perks? If not, how do we fix them?-Light Steps is part of the Green tree, which is overall balanced.-Battle Rhyme is only overshadowed by 50% Defense Piercing right now. Rising Magic scores will make it far more powerful later for non-Power-focused Neraines.QuoteEndQuoteEEnd- I don't understand the comment about Light Steps. It is inferior to the other two level 1 perks in pretty much every situation, so wouldn't that call for it to be balanced appropriately? If it was +50 Dodge or something that would make it a bit more powerful and hence be tempting. If lvl 10 Nera has ~60% evade with 20 Agility and the Lvl 2 Green Perk, it would make it 65%. That would be about 14% more durability to 100 hit attacks. At lvl 20 with 75% to 80% evade this would be a 25% increase in durability. Well, when it is first available the perk is something to grab when you are raising agility. I suppose it is balanced early, but not so much late. If you take the Lvl 2 Green Perk for her there is no real reason to take the Lvl 1 green perk. It just feels kind of pointlessly redundant. The difference between 3 and 4 move is significant, but not so much between 4 and 5.- Battle Rhyme is nice in theory but assuming that Nera is even the target of a single unit's attack then it only increases her damage output by 20% between her turn and her target's. If she is surrounded by enemies who all want to attack her and they are range 1 and she doesn't get obliterated by the assault then I suppose it is useful? You have to give up 10% of her evade to take it, which is where most of her durability comes from in the first pl
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